In today's episode we have something a little different for you, My colleague Helen Chao of the Smart Career Planning Podcast interviews both myself and fellow Recruiting Consultant Keith Halperin on effective salary negotiation especially in the 2nd Half of Life. "I heard a good thing recently about negotiation.

In today's episode, we have something a little different for you, My colleague Helen Chao of the Smart Career Planning Podcast interviews both myself and fellow Recruiting Consultant Keith Halperin on effective salary negotiation especially in the 2nd Half of Life.

“I heard a good thing recently about negotiation. It's like you don't get what you deserve in life. You get what you negotiate for.”
- Keith Halperin

“If your staff is all super young and that's all you guys, you're missing sometimes the benefit of people that have seen the business side of things.”
- Tim Hansen

Key Takeaways for Second Act’ers on how to make the most out of looking out for new opportunities:

Do your due diligence. Do your homework on the candidate side. Before talking to a hiring manager or even in another recruiter for that example, go to wallstreetjournal.com and refer to their salary calculator for reference.
Give a range. Combine that data with your existing salary level and what you're trying to achieve in your next move. You want them to come back to you with a more accurate offer.
Keep the negotiation door open. Put yourself in a position where the company can come back to you and make an offer.

Topics Covered:

03:49 - Tim's and Keith's points of views when it comes to not disclosing how much you want to make when it comes to salary negotiation

08:41 - Thoughts about negotiation for the sake of negotiating

14:03 - Is there really such a thing as hiring overqualified candidates?

21:09 - Tim on figuring out a personal move or a career move, both on the part of the candidate and the hiring manager

24:29 - Keith's observation of having more junior than senior folks in the Bay Area

26:08 - Tim's thought about the "youth trend"

31:00 - Tim on why it pays to be concerned about a company's financial standing and key people running the company

Connect With Helen Chou

Connect With Keith Halperin

https://www.linkedin.com/in/keithhalperin

Connect with Tim Hansen

Transcript:

Tim Hansen: (00:00)

Howdy, Second Act’ers.

In today's episode, we have something a little different for you. My colleague Helen chow of the smart career planning podcast interviews, both myself and fellow recruiting consultant Keith Halperin on effective salary negotiation and pursuing second act alternatives.

Helen Chao: (00:24)

Welcome to Smart Career Planning, a podcast that discusses anything and maybe everything that goes into planning, a smart career journey. I'm your host, Helen Chao.

Hi, everyone. Welcome to our monthly Dear Recruiter Series. I know some if you listen to my quote-unquote teaser episode about a month ago, but this is an inaugural podcast in which I have two guest speakers with me, Tim Hansen and Keith Halperin. I'm going to have them introduce themselves before we dive right into the meat of this podcast. Tim, would you like to come in and introduce yourself?

Tim Hansen: (00:58)

Sure, absolutely. Well, welcome everybody and thank you all for joining us. My name is Tim Hansen and I'm a recruiting consultant here in the San Francisco Bay area, about 15 plus years in the business and I focus on sales, marketing, and IT and technology positions within the tech space.

Helen Chao: (01:14)

Good. How about you Keith?

Keith Halperin: (01:17)

I'm Keith Halperin and I've recruited way too long. But, seriously, I've been contracting over 20 years. I've done a lot of technical and non-technical in a wide variety of companies and I'm very thankful to Helen for setting this all up and talking to your audience out there.

Helen Chao: (01:42)

Sounds good. So, just that little bit of background information. The reason that I reached out to the two of you and hosts this monthly podcast is because I read a lot of articles out there. I'm an avid follower of anything about hiring, layoffs, and recruitment and then notice a lot of articles out there, especially about hiring. They're written by professional writers and not many of them, if any of them, are actually in the recruitment industry. So, rather than then as keep writing, like as recruitment professionals writing something out there and that debunk what other people have written previously. So, we might as well have a podcast to talk about some of those trends that we've noticed. It can be in their own personal lives, in a recruitment world or any articles we come across and talk about. Is that real? Or, you know, what's your perspective on it?

So, I recently came across two articles and I sent them to the two of you. The first one is an article from Glassdoor about salary negotiation. The article offers nine tips for those of you who are interested in reading this entire article, you can find the link in my past podcast description. Now, among the nine tips, some of them I definitely agree with, but some I personally am not too sure of. So, we'd love to open it up to the two you and see what you think. One is, the article says don't disclose how much you want to make when it comes to salary negotiation. And the other one is, the article talks about avoiding negative languages such as saying, oh, I'm sorry, or saying no in any capacity in any way, shape or form. And the article also sad to leave the word yes to the other party, meaning to the company, which means negotiating ends only when a company you want to work for saying yes to you, even though you may feel that the offer is just too good to be true. So, those are the two I would like to talk about. I don't know if you have any comments about, you know, do you prefer candidates to not, when it comes to negotiating for salary, what do you think about, don't disclose how much you want to make?

Tim Hansen: (03:49)

Sure. Keith, I'll take point on this one if you don't mind.

Keith Halperin: (03:52)

Absolutely.

Tim Hansen: (03:54)

Kind of what I found Helen, the best thing is to definitely do your homework on the candidate side. And what I mean by that is, before you're talking to a hiring manager or even in another recruiter for that example, you should, you can go on to wallstreetjournal.com, they have a good salary calculator there. Some of that is nationwide. I would say it's a nationwide calculator, take a look, plug in your profession, see what the salary is and if it's nationwide, add another 10%, 15% for the Bay Area cause it's so expensive to live here. But you can get a pretty good indicator from that. You can also talk to some other independent recruiters and salary ranges. And so after you've done a little bit of homework, you'll start to see some commonality and you'll start to kind of see where you fit.

And so I'd say combined that new knowledge with your existing salary level and what you're trying to achieve in your next move. And when you're working with someone and the conversation is going to come up, what kind of salary range are you looking for? I would just give them a range. And the reason I suggest you do that is you want them to come back to you with a more accurate offer and they have one in mind. Trust me, I absolutely guarantee you they have a figure in mind. Everyone has a budget, but I always say you don't want to go on in an adversarial manner. If you go in and say, here's the salary range I'm open to, I'm, I'm kinda open to entertaining offers in this scope and I'd be interested in hearing what you have to say and then shut up.

And 90% of the time they're going to come back to you and go, you know, if you're on target, they'll say, you know what? That's within our range. Then you're fine. You have a green light, you left the door open for negotiation and that's a win-win for everybody because you do want to put yourself in a position where the company can come back to you. I would not give a hard figure out the first time around, but I would offer a range and I've seen that. I've seen that method very, very successful on the CIO level on down.

Keith Halperin: (05:59)

I agree very much with that. As the article was saying about not giving any information, I regard that as both a negative sign personally and a bit of a flag. When I am trying to present a candidate to a hiring manager, I really need to know that the person is somewhat within at least a fair degree of what we're planning to offer. So, Tim's approach to offer a range is really good, not willing to offer anything thing. I have a problem with that and I let the manager know that this candidate is not prepared...

Helen Chao: (06:44)

In regards to, you know, I really agree with what the two of you had said. I think for me, I've seen candidates respond in a variety of ways. Some of them talk about, oh this is what I'm making now, which in my mind it's fine and people they know they are underpaid. So, they would, you know, kind of like what you said, Tim and Keith, they would do some background research on what the market rate is. Or if they talk about their salary with friends and they realize, Jesus, I am really underpaid. So they want to talk. They do talk about this is how much I want to make without disclosing how much they're making right now. Which to me is fine too. But I think what I don't like is when candidates, they do not want to disclose how much they're making right now.

It could be because they are afraid of getting low balled. But I think more importantly, sometimes their salary is so much higher than the market. They feel like they are going to be excluded from this opportunity. And I personally do not like surprises. I would just tell them, this is my range. Like if it's not okay with you, you know, this may not be a good fit if it works for you... I just don't like surprises. And I think, for us as recruitment professionals, we just want to do our job. We don't want to have candidates and have the entire team fall in love with this person. And be stuck with, oh Jesus, this person is completely throwing off the internal equity. What are we going to do? That part would leave a really bad taste in my mouth and makes me feel horrible. So, for candidates out there, and it's not about, you know, do some background research, but I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing to disclose your desired range as long as you feel good about the range as well as you've done some background research. Now, how about the second piece? About what if the offer comes back. It's really great. Do you feel like, what do you think of candidates that just negotiate for the sake of negotiating

Keith Halperin: (08:36)

I hadn't really had much of a situation like that? What I tried to do from the very beginning, and this goes to what you were sounding just a moment ago, Helen, is, I try and get the compensation picture out of the way at the very beginning of the process. It's one of the very things that I ask. If someone is underpaid, I need to know the reasons why. If they are overpaid, I need to know the reasons why and if they are willing to take a loss and compensation for this particular position. Like you, I don't like to be surprised and I certainly don't like to have my managers being surprised. I heard a very thing, good thing recently about negotiation. It's like you don't get what you deserve in life. You get what you negotiate. So, if someone has a good offer and they want to get better, fine. If I say I've come in and I've got the very best thing I can and I can't quote any more, I will let them know that whenever possible. Negotiation for the sake of negotiating, I don't particularly care for it. But, sometimes it's necessary.

Helen Chao: (09:57)

Yeah. How about you Tim?

Tim Hansen: (10:00)

Well, again, I haven't come from, you know, being raised by a family that came from other countries. Bartering is in our blood. Even though I was born here, I was raised in a way where negotiation is a part of life and I've always said if it's a win-win situation, I've never looked at negotiation as some one's a winner, one's a loser. That's a failing proposition. I don't have any problem with negotiation and other things after the fact that they make sense. If you have another offer on the table and you're trying to compete and this is in the best interest of your family, I totally understand that and I'm willing to address it and help you in that manner. If it gets to the point of I'm just negotiating just for the sake of it and I got 20 other offers or whatever and I'm really not that interested. Then at some point, I'm probably going to pull the plug or yes, the hiring manager, this is the long person because I don't just hire for money and skillset.

I mean that's something you can find on a resume. To a large degree. I'm a big believer in hiring for what I call intent and what I mean by that is, I want to put someone at a company, whether I'm on a contract consulting assignment or you're paying me on a retainer. When you hire someone from me, I want that person to want to be there. Not only can they do the job, they want to be there and they want to do that job because if I don't have that and I don't feel that from you the first time you get an offer from someone else or someone coming around offering you $5 more an hour or whatever, you're gone. And I, I don't have any problem with you looking out for your family and that's fine, but at some point, you have to want to pull the trigger and it's got to fit for you.

But again, I want it to be a win-win. And I really look at intent really, really hard and I have done this 15 plus years. I've run that way my entire life in this career and it's worked out very well. I have a high stick rate of when people have been put somewhere. They stay unless the company goes out of business, mergers, acquisitions in tech, that's a common thing. But I don't have a revolving door of people leaving every month or two. I've never had that. And I've actually recommended to hiring managers that people don't hire people. Even though the skillset was there, the money was there. If I don't get that gut feeling, man, this person wants to be here, live, breathe and die, I'm going to recommend that we don't do it cause I'm not going to play someone just for the fee and hope they stick.

I'm not going to do that. Cause I want to work with people in a manner where you're not hiring one person from me, you're hiring your whole team. And when I've put someone in a company and they're a senior-level management position, that person's usually responsible for hiring junior staff and they have worked with me as well. So I look at the relationship aspect a lot and I tell them that, by the way, in the very beginning too, I let them know, Hey if this is the wrong opportunity for you, that's totally okay. And I do that to let them off the hook. If the answer is no and you really got something better, I'm all for it and I wish you the best 100%. If we're sitting here playing games, this company paid me a lot of money to find talent and I'm going to go find someone that wants to be here and is not going to waste anybody's time.

Helen Chao: (13:17)

Very good. Now, the second article like came across, which I actually talked about in my previous podcast. It was about hiring someone who's overqualified. So, the title implies, it is, I believe the title of that article was, Should I Hire Someone Who's Overqualified and they both have contacts. There are this resume and the recruiters going through that with the hiring manager, the recruiter things. This person is completely overqualified, but the hiring manager said, oh, interesting experience and would love to talk with this person. So, the recruiter asked that question, you know, what do you think about hiring someone who's overqualified? What do you guys think?

Keith Halperin: (14:03)

I'll take the lead on this one. I don't think there are very many overqualified candidates. I think there are candidates who want too much money. They may be justified for what they're asking for, but they want too much money or they're too old. If a candidate is sincerely willing to work in that particular position for the amount that you're prepared to pay and they aren't overqualified and all else being equal, you should hire them. And I don't think you should use overqualified as sort of a code word for, as I say, they make too much money or they're too senior.

Helen Chao: (14:45)

Good. How about you Tim?

Tim Hansen: (14:50)

Well, I have two parts to this answer. So, one reflects the hiring manager, one would reflect on the candidate. So at some point, if you've been around long enough in your career, you kind of know what salary ranges are. And if you're overqualified, you've probably hired people in your lifetime as well staff and work for you so you know what you're running at. You're probably running into two things. Age, especially in tech, whether people want to admit it or not, it does exist. And the monetary side, every company has a budget. So I would say number one to the hiring manager. If someone sees someone that's overqualified and comes to their internal recruiter, retained recruiter or whatnot, I really want to talk to this person. That's fine. But I would also ask that the hiring manager, that's great, we can do that. But if we get this gentleman or lady on the phone and it worked well, would you be in a position to want to hire somebody like that given your budget range?

And the reason I say that is they're seeing the skillset, you know, they're starting to salivate on what this person can do, but I'm trying to bring them back to the reality that let's, let's just imagine if everybody loved everybody. It's kind of like dating, Hey, okay, we've been dating for a while and now we're engaged. We're thinking about getting married and are you ready to put a ring on that finger? That type of thing. And we're like, Nah, I really don't. I really don't have the money to do that. Well then, okay, it's academic. And I would simply ask that hiring manager, are we really in a position to kind of go through the motions or do you really want me to focus on someone like that for you? Now if he or she, the hiring manager says, yes, no problem. We'll make it work. Fine.

Then I would suggest we move forward and usually what's going to happen is they made too much money. Are they going to be happy here? These are all concerns or are they kind of older, whatnot. I've been in that position myself and so I would recommend to the candidate, here's my response that I would go back to the hiring manager. Why should I hire you? This amount of money, you're kind of on the older side, blah blah. Well, here's your answer, Mr hiring manager. Yes, I've made this amount of money and yes I've done that, but the benefit of hiring me is I can do full time, I can do a 40-hour job and probably 10 hours versus one of your junior people. So my suggestion, if the other financial arrangement just isn't going to work, why don't we look at putting me on a contingency or a consulting basis versus a straight salary? And I think the benefit to you is you're going to get full-time results for part-time pay and then shut up.

I've seen it work very well. And then the managers look at that. They have very little training to do. Those people usually come with a high level of internal accountability already. They want to work, they know they're competing with people younger than them that can go in and get 30 grand less. They know that. And you're kind of in a model right now mode in your life where you may or may not get that salary or you've priced yourself out of the market, you can still get the money. You have to learn to package your money differently at that point in your career, not only for yourself but also when you're talking to a hiring manager cause that hiring manager is either they got a budget or they have to go to their CFO and they have to have it make sense. So, I'd say you as the candidate need to be a little bit of stoop on how to handle salary negotiations up at a different phase of your life. Has nothing to do with whether it's fair or not. I'm saying we're dealing with reality and I'm talking from personal experience, having gone through this myself. This is what happens when you've made a certain amount of money at a later stage in life. But however, this is how also how you can reposition yourself and be incredibly successful even when you're competing with people that want 30 grand less and that are a lot younger than you.

Helen Chao: (18:37)

Yeah. They all make sense. So, the previous podcast I talked about, you know, there are two sides, right? One is from the, for the recruiter and I feel like, I really agree with opening up that dialogue. You know, whether it be, you know, setting the expectations for the hiring manager. If you are going to talk with this person, these are a couple of things you may want to think about before you go into the conversation and further vet the candidate. Or even it got so on my end, who knows, maybe there is something about this candidate experience that, you know, that's intriguing. Maybe this hiring manager has a very specific project in mind that this person has the right skill sets or maybe this person, you know, we are looking for long term engagement is not just this starting point, but this person within maybe nine months if this person achieves X, Y, and Z, this person can be promoted into that role.

So, I think it should be a really good conversation starter, especially if the hiring manager looks at the resume is like, Oh, this person has interest and experience. Or maybe they just want to gather some intelligence. Maybe this person comes from a company, a competitor company, and they want to gather some information about this company, what's going on. So, that's I think one side of looking at it. But from a candidate's perspective I was talking about, you know, it's always about a career journey. So, I think in the past I always thought that people should always, you know, go for it. You know, what is the next step in my career? Always chasing after the next step. And then recently came across this, you know, spoke with this person and this person said to me, I've done this. I've done this HR role and this office manager administrator role for over 20 years.

I can do it with my eyes closed at this point in my career. I just want something really relaxing. I don't want to think about the next step in my career. I just want to know some kind of pocket money to use. And I'm not thinking about how can I, how can I grow this person at this company from a 50 person company to 500? Like, that is not what I want to do. I don't want that stress. To me, it was eye-opening because I've never thought about the other side of things. So, going back to this specific article, who knows, maybe, you know, without knowing the story, maybe this candidate just wants something really laid back things super simple because there's a lot going on in his or her life. So, I think, you know, especially if the hiring manager is interested in speaking with a person, we should, you know, give this person a chance to figure out what the story is.

Tim Hansen: (21:09)

Right? Yeah, I agree with that. And it's usually just going to come down to their, their personal bias. I was a single father for many years and I actually applied for one position that was junior. And even when I interviewed a gentleman, he even asked me, he said, why would someone with your background be doing this? This was years and years ago. I said, I have daughters in different States and this is a virtual component and it allows me to travel and still do the job for you, but also to be in multiple States. But to him it still didn't make, it still wasn't good enough for him. He kind of had the feeling that the minute I got another offer, I'd be going. Now, for me it was a lifestyle play to Helen, to your point, it was not about chasing another career move.

It was what's going on in my life at this time. At that time, my daughters were in different States. I was responsible for them to a large degree and I was helping them with college and getting things reorganized. So, for me, that was my driving force. It wasn't about the next career move or running a department. It was about being part of a team, doing my job so well that you don't have to worry about that part of your department. I'll do it so well you'll never have to think about it. But again, it comes down to personal bias on how they felt. That gentleman at that time felt like, I don't know. You're probably going to go somewhere else. Which I did not. I actually found a competitor that did have that same job night and I took that job.

Yeah. And you know, look, you're not the only game in town. And I would tell that to some of these companies too. You know, whether you want to admit it or not tell is hard to come by good people that like, what did Woody Allen say years and years ago? What's 99% of success? Just show up. There are so many people that don't even have that level of accountability. And when you find someone that can do the job, you don't need to babysit 'em you can count on them 100%. I mean, you gotta check-in, you gotta be accountable. You got to communicate up and down with your team. I get that. Especially if you're in your virtual model. Well, do that and just be so good at that, that you're a manager or department head doesn't need to worry about you. Now, having said all that, if you've explained all that and the person still has a bias, that's fine. I have a magic word for that. Next.

I went, look, you're not the only game in town and that's okay. If you don't want me, that's fine. I don't take it personally. I'm just not the right fit for you for whatever reason. I'll just go somewhere else. And I would say that to the candidates. If you've only got one thing in your quiver, one opportunity you're chasing, you have a problem, you're putting all your hopes and dreams in one thing and 'you're putting your whole financial future in one thing. I would not suggest you do that. I'd suggest you work three to five opportunities. It gives you a broad array of finding out where you really want to be, what you really wanna do. And I guarantee you the company's talking to five or 10 candidates. You need to treat your own career. Be the CEO of You, Inc. and then be fair with the people that you're in final negotiations with.

Helen Chao: (24:09)

Nice. Nice. Nice. Those are great tips. Now, the two of you, I'm sure you speak with a number of candidates, hiring managers or even read articles about recruitment. Are there specific topics that you're interested in or some common trends that you're noticing? Anyone? Anything?

Tim Hansen: (24:28)

Go for it, Keith.

Keith Halperin: (24:29)

Well, I've noticed a continuing trend at least, here in the Bay area, sort of, a cult of youth that many of the jobs which are, if they're not actually created if they're not the majority of jobs, the ones that people hear about are with startups and startups tend to, as far as hiring run very young. And I think this is quite normal. People tend to like the people around them who are like them, whether that be their age, their background, their personality types. What is little different though from when Tim and I started out is it seems there's much more emphasis on people who are quite junior. When we started out, there were a number of people who are junior, but again, they're also a pretty fair number and a pretty fair demand for people who had been around the block for a while. I don't see so much of that. It'd be a variety of things. Again, it can be why you know, you like to have people around you who are low, like you, not like your folks. Also could be a lot of these folks are around 30,000 a year cheaper than the people who are more experienced. This is one thing that I have been seeing for the past few years. I don't see any signs of that debating. What about you Tim?

Tim Hansen: (26:08)

Well, in the tech sector that's pretty common and I think there are a couple of reasons, Keith and Helen. So, one is definitely mone, whether anyone wants to admit it or not. I mean, and again, if you're looking just to start your career and you know, those people have worked on some of the newer technologies. I totally understand that. But it's also a monetary aspect and sometimes they'll want to groom them for those positions. So, if it's a rank and file filled with slot, you know, these are the line positions we have, whether you're an iOS developer, Android developer, a Q and a, whatnot. That's fine. I think as you go farther up the chain and you're getting into managerial positions, different things, you need a different skill set. Definitely, people that are a little bit more experienced. And I think sometimes the startups, cause I've seen a ton of them fold in the past year, have hired great people from them where I looked, you had good technology ideas but your business acumen was kind of lacking or your business plan was lacking. And I've had lots of conversations in the past two years with this where, you know, I hired a lot of wonderful people that have come from them, some junior and some mid-senior. And my conversation was, well, did your company have any sales revenue?

You know, so if you're starting out, yeah, if you're a start-up, you have a great idea. Yeah, that's fine. But I've lived through the dotcom phase, dot com did dot-bomb. And I'm like if you haven't sold anything, unless you're just in proof of concept model, fine. So, to all the tech, I get it like Keith's point, people like people to be around them, where you feel comfortable. That's fine. But I'd say success is a company. Usually, the most successful ones I've seen usually have a good mix. They've got some veterans and they've gotten some junior people and they got some mid-level. If your staff is all super young and that's all you guys, you're missing sometimes the benefit of people that have seen the business side of things even in tech that you probably do not.

Helen Chao: (28:11)

Yes. And I cannot agree more. On my, you know, the career consulting business when someone signs up for maybe an interview coaching, I typically do very thorough background research of the companies that they are interviewing for. Just figuring out that the mix, you know, are they more seasoned folks? Are they recent grads? But someway somehow have a senior director title which is very concerning to me. And also looking at the movements there are companies that promote people rapidly. It is as if it's like a carrot that dangles and you know, if you hit this point it's like, okay, this, this video game has you after hitting this point and you're in the next level after you hit this point, it's the next level. It's like a rabbit hole. So, going back to what you're talking about Keith, I do agree and I actually agree with both of you.

I think there's a good mix of companies that are really early-stage startups. They're looking for friends, they're looking for people with quote-unquote the right culture of the mix. You know, essentially, you know, can I do, I see myself grabbing a beer with this person and then hire a bunch of friends with similar personalities, with similar mindsets, with similar experience. But no one really challenges each other. So as a result, the company doesn't grow, the technology doesn't grow and they fold within the next couple of years. And I do agree companies that are most successful startup companies that are moving towards IPOs are the ones who, that has a very good mix of up comer emerging professionals, mid-stage, mid-career folks as well as very senior folks who have been there, done that. They've exited the companies they have. They have seen some just horrible things in this world because they bring all of those experiences into this technology companies and figure out how, like, they've seen tough times, they know how to solve those tough times and solve those problems.

So I think, you know, for, for candidates out there, for people who are looking for different jobs, I do think that's something they should really look into. And the other thing too is that you know, you can bring up those questions. You know, your, your revenue, you can talk, for startups, they probably don't even disclose revenue. You can talk about products, how much they've grown. But all of the things are to me fluffs you should really look into the actual numbers, look out, look on LinkedIn, even be, they may be a premium member where you can see different insights about a company that typical people cannot see and numbers never lie. People can, it's the recruiter's job to sell the company. It is the hiring manager's job to sell the position and the company and the technology. But I would recommend all of them to look at some hard numbers and ask, you know, maybe the tougher questions, just so that they know they're making the right decision for themselves.

Tim Hansen: (31:00)

Right. Helen. I agree with that and that, and that goes to, especially in the younger generation where that's not the sexy conversation. That's the reality. The conversation. It's kind of almost like, wow, look at that house. But then it's like, I don't want to talk about how I have to pay for it.

Helen Chao: (31:14)

Oh, right.

Tim Hansen: (31:16)

Look, there's nothing wrong with dreaming big and let's talk about the up and coming technology in it. Man, you need dreamers. I'd love it. I'm one of them myself. I always say I'm about 80 and 90% dreamer and I got a 10% reality that tries to keep me in check. Thank God, my wife's kind of the other way around.

Really kind of really grounds me, workouts a very good combination. But Keith and I have seen that a lot and especially in the dotcom era. You know, all my uncles and cousins are now retired IT people. They were in the Valley for 40 plus years and I spent some time in technology before staffing myself, you know, back in the 80s. So, I've seen the trend with the tech companies. Let's go give venture capital. Let's do this. I've got a wonderful idea, especially in the dot com era. And just go, go, go, go, go, let's sexy, let's go get some money. But no one's told them, nobody sold anything. Nobody had a conversation about sales and marketing. This, you know, coming back to this conversation, how are you going to go to market? Because if you're hiring an iOS, iOS developer, Android developer, Java, whatever, all those are wonderful things. But if your company is not producing revenue, that revenue pays for your salary. Now you may have some venture capital money in the beginning and you're just burning. You're just going to a burn-through rate. Probably in about a year or two, you're going to work long hours and get me out of a job. And so I would always ask companies and people, make sure you take a look at that, have those conversations. If a company doesn't want to disclose it, then I'd say buyer beware.

I would be worried about that. When I'm looking at taking on a call, I don't do a ton of contingency, I don't think to keep an eye. Both don't really do that anymore. I do contingent and see with engagement fees, kind of a revenue share, a mix of retained and then some consulting. But in that model, there's a lot of companies that need help that come to Keith and I and we turn them down. And one of the reasons I'm looking at it as I always say, eat your own dog food. Practice what you preach. I'm looking at their financials. Do you have the money to pay my bill? I had a client years ago in 1998 when I worked for a consulting group when dot com started going under and some people in our group were just, we're taking any contracts they could get and I warned them ahead of time.

I said, not all money is good money. This company put us through our paces, ran us ragged, made us prove we could do what we could do. We did everything they asked and they defaulted to the tune of $300,000 paying us. That only has to happen to us or me one time and so I would say have that conversation with everybody that you talk to and if they don't want to, then I'd say Barbie were or look, most reputable companies even start a phase. They're going to have some indication. If they're in the development phase and they're not ready with the marketing team yet, fine. Ask them what round of funding they're in. If they're like, oh, I don't even have round A, you haven't even said who yet. I mean, I usually work with startups that are usually in probably round two of funding or series B, whatever you want to call it.

I don't do too many, which are like rat out of the gate because I want to see some proof of concept, but have some senior people have, if you don't have a formal board of advisors or people that work with your company, go find some that you can go bounce ideas and your industry off. There are people out there, there are people that are sitting on your board and offer advice. There are wonderful people out there. There's a great organization called the Karasu forum here in the Bay area. They bring angel investors together. They have entrepreneurs do their pitch, kind of like shark tank for tech, but the common thing I've seen for them all the time before you're going to get money from those guys is what's your marketing plan and who are your key people? And when they say key people, they want to know who are the senior people running the show. We're going to give you a million or $2 million. Who's responsible for that? So, I'd say if you don't have them internally, there are people and organizations that'll help you. I'd say as a candidate, I would want to know that conversation I do. It is running my own business at SMI recruiting. I won't work with anyone. If they can't prove to me they don't have any financials, I'm probably not going to take you on as a client.

Helen Chao: (35:36)

That's very good. I definitely agree with the fact that it's a candidate's job to listen to not just listen to what the recruiter and the hiring manager say, but to really look at a complete picture.

Tim Hansen: (35:48)

Yeah. When someone defaults to the tune of $300,000 that really only has to happen to you once. If it happens to you twice, you didn't learn your lesson.

Helen Chao: (36:00)

Yup, yup, yup. So I realize we've been talking straight for about 40 minutes. I know we all have places we need to go to and pause that we need to make. To wrap this up, I would love to have the two of you guys back on for maybe if it's not next month, maybe in the month of May for another podcast. You what do you guys think?

Tim Hansen: (36:22)

I would love that. Good.

Keith Halperin: (36:24)

Sounds good.

Helen Chao: (36:24)

Thank you so much, Tim and Keith. Okay. Bye.

Enjoyed the Podcast?

Please Subscribe via your Favorite Podcast App for Updates